In January 2023 I started a conversations project during an art residency, where I realised I find it easier to initiate and have conversations if I paint at the same time. Each person is someone I am interested to have a conversation with. Whilst there might be particular things I would like to talk about with them, I don’t have questions planned in advance and what happens is organic. Whilst we speak, I paint. What I share here is the painted/drawn outcome of the conversation. Afterwards, I write up my reflections about my experience of the conversation. Then, they go into my gallery of conversations, which you have found yourself in here…

This conversation took place last night, with Lottie McCarthy (they/them). I met Lottie almost a year ago at our Art Babies ‘feelings are real’ exhibition at the Barbican. Steve and I had chatted a bit with Lottie and then I followed them on instagram and was very intrigued by the strange projects and things they were up to, particularly House of Wonk. I also realised we are based close to each other – in Newham – and knew lots of similar people/community organisations.

Every now and then I have a burst of ‘gallery of conversations’ energy and I contact people about taking part. But most of the time, it all happens quite slowly and I love keeping it a non-forced or pushy project (even though sometimes it’s tempting to set goals: e.g. X amount of conversations each month). A while ago I asked Lottie if they would like to take part and they sent a lovely enthusiastic response. I had to cancel our first plan because I was ill and difficult life events were happening but we rescheduled and met in mid-January.

We met in my studio in the evening. It’s fairly rare for me to be anywhere but on the sofa in the evening. My period is also just about to begin and part of me wanted to nestle under lots of blankets but I decided to take my sleepy self to the studio and not put pressure on myself to be any different to how I was feeling. Could I be pre-period Jo, without masking and draining my energy?

I had a concern about what it would be like, both sitting in my studio. It’s a small space and it’s usually really quiet and I wondered if it would feel awkward. I moved some objects and furniture around a bit to try and help. The chair options aren’t great but I moved the least awful chair into my room. I made a pot of sleepy tea for us because I knew caffeine would be a bad idea for me that late.

When they sat down, before I’d explained much about the project/process, I asked them if they needed anything. It was a strange question to ask. I think I get it from my mum, who asks this every night that I stay there, just before I go to bed. I always find it a funny and strange question but I am also compelled to ask the same question whenever someone stays with me. And then I did it in my studio! Maybe it’s when I’m in hosting mode. It felt silly even as I asked it because 1) I didn’t even have much I could offer other than the tea and the seat and 2) Lottie didn’t know much about what we were doing yet so how could they know whether they needed anything? When we did get started, I thought about this a few times and it amused me. 

In a previous painting conversation with Steve, I was a bit distracted by him painting at the same time as us talking. Despite this, it felt right to ask Lottie whether they would like any art materials and I showed them to the drawer full of drawing stuff. I’m glad I did…plus it seems fairer as I know I find it much easier to chat with people if I have the option of drawing/painting at the same time.

I really enjoyed talking with Lottie. We talked about neurodivergence, being artists, having enough energy for different types of activity and work. We talked about learning about our own brains and bodies and realising the social things we don’t want to do any more and wondering about whether that’s a big part of what neurodivergence is, like stopping making eye contact when you don’t want to, or not taking part in small-talk, or leaving without saying goodbye. Realising all the things you don’t want to do any more. 

We talked about goodbyes – I was saying how uncomfortable I can find them – especially when leaving a group of humans. I believe this is for a few reasons. One is that I think in saying goodbye I am disappointing people by not doing what they want me to do (stay and be sociable). I fear breaking connection and damaging the relationship. Secondly, I dread the moment of announcing I am leaving because all eyes turn to me in a moment that I least want them to. Thirdly, it can involve making repeated small talk with each person I say goodbye to. I said to Lottie how sometimes I will feel this is a moment that I need to acknowledge when I will next see the person and then I end up being awkward if I don’t know when that is and make vague suggestions. We talked about French exits – where you leave without saying goodbye. (I’m not sure if this is an offensive term, I looked it up and found that the French version is the filer à l’anglaise – leaving the English way – so I’ll include both to make it fair). Apparently, Lottie’s sister does this. I am in awe. I was also aware that bringing this up meant I felt a spotlight on how I said goodbye to them at the end. 

I enjoyed a synchronicity with meeting Lottie that it was during a week that I have been working on a funding application where I would like money to do research and development into developing a more circular, sustainable artistic practices which benefits me and my community through connection – to ourselves through self expression, to each other and to the living world, in the hope that it helps us treat our living world better. And make our communities better for us. Lottie works at Reinstate project – and part of what they are doing is developing a way for community organisations to know what each other have so that resources can be shared and less things to be bought or wasted. I’m hoping to learn more about what they are up to. 

I genuinely liked the idea of hanging out with Lottie again, whether for some more art making or mudlarking or visiting Reinstate. So I said that and said I really meant it and it wasn’t just an awkward goodbye thing. I still felt like a clumsy fool but it was nice, too. After they left, I noticed the drawing they’d been doing whilst we were talking was in my studio and I wondered if they meant to leave it there. It actually amused me because I have a pet peeve about people leaving artwork at the end of workshops I’ve run – and this reminded me of that feeling. I would LOVE to be gifted someone’s creation because they specifically want to give it to me, but I don’t want it to be left with me because the person is avoiding working out what they want to do with it. Let me know, Lottie 😀

*they let me know – it was a gift – yey!

To find out more about Lottie’s work, you can find them here.

To go back to the gallery, click here.